#41 Intercultural Learning - Developing the Human Superpower We All Need with Tara Harvey

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00:01:01: world!

00:01:10: But I often say that intercultural learning is no longer

00:01:15: a nice-to-have

00:01:16: skill, but must have skills.

00:01:22: Welcome today's episode where we explore the importance of Intercultural Learning.

00:01:30: We are honored to be joined by Tara Harvey, founder of True North Intercultural and a recognized leader in intercultural teaching and learning.

00:01:40: Tara works with higher education institutions educators and professionals around the world With a background spanning international student services, study abroad teaching and leadership development.

00:02:00: And the PhD in comparative and International Development Education.

00:02:05: she brings both deep expertise and practical insight to this conversation.

00:02:11: on her personal note Tara and I actually met through one of Tara's trainings, which are found incredibly insightful.

00:02:18: Especially the way she approaches intercultural learning as a developmental process in their lifelong learning processes.

00:02:27: So today we will discuss why Intercultural Learning is essential to our global society how it helps us to navigate difference with greater understanding and what it takes to turn diverse experiences into meaningful learning and growth.

00:02:44: So welcome, Tara!

00:02:45: We are so happy to have you here today.

00:02:48: Welcome!

00:02:50: Thank You!

00:02:51: I'm glad we had this conversation.

00:02:53: So, Tara, could you briefly share your own pathway in intercultural learning?

00:03:01: Sure, well I am from and situated in the United States.

00:03:05: In the Midwest...in Minnesota..I grew up here- I keep leaving but i keep coming back.

00:03:12: so I grew up and was not exposed to a lot of cultural differences.

00:03:17: But for some reason I got it in my mind at a young age that It was important to become fluent in a second language And To Become Fluent in A Second Language?

00:03:29: So in seventh grade, I had the choice at my school actually between German and Spanish class.

00:03:39: Apologies but Spanish seemed more relevant.

00:03:47: Eventually in college, went into the study abroad office said I want to live abroad.

00:04:07: it influenced my career obviously, but also I've now been married for over twenty plus years to a Spaniard that i met during that year and so have raised bilingual children trying to raise intercultural children as well.

00:04:24: And then after we moved back to the

00:04:26: U.S.,

00:04:27: I started in the field of international education.

00:04:31: So, as you mentioned first I was an international student advisor working with students coming from other countries to the US.

00:04:39: To study degrees and then i got into this study abroad field.

00:04:44: did intercultural teaching?

00:04:46: As I pursued a PhD in Intercultural Learning because I was particularly curious about we create these experiences in education where But oftentimes, we just assume that's going to happen.

00:05:03: And I saw it wasn't always happening in the ways.

00:05:16: Fifteen plus years, maybe longer in my career is just how can educators not just create great intercultural learning opportunities but actually maximize the learning potential in those experiences.

00:05:33: Yeah, Tero that's so interesting!

00:05:35: How do you define actually inter-culture learning and your work?

00:05:39: Because it's a term which has been used for quite some time now

00:05:46: Exactly.

00:05:47: So I want to turn the question just for a moment, to the listeners before I answer.

00:05:53: get them think about what do you?

00:05:58: Think intercultural learning is or when you hear Intercultural Learning What comes to mind?

00:06:05: How

00:06:05: many assumptions are often that it is learning about other of their cultures and specifically other country cultures.

00:06:18: Culture is often thought of as synonymous with countries, but intercultural learning about developing more culture general and transferable skills.

00:06:32: so it's not just a workshop on the do's doing business in Japan, for example.

00:06:40: You can learn a lot of useful cultural information there but it's probably not going to transfer to other types of cultural contexts.

00:06:50: so intercultural learning is about uh learning to navigate complex cultural differences in a way that can serve us in a lot different intercultural situations abroad as well just navigating difference between different ways of making meaning, experiencing the world perspective.

00:07:13: And all those things can be shaped by countries where we're raised but their regions are religious and spiritual groups or socioeconomic status our different abilities gender vocation.

00:07:29: so So I define intercultural competence, which is a term of my often use as the capacity to communicate and engage effectively appropriately.

00:07:44: And authentically across cultural differences locally in globally.

00:07:49: when they used the term intercultural learning?

00:07:52: I'm really referring to that ongoing like long process said of developing intercultural confidence.

00:08:03: And culture includes again, any groups that have sort of shaped how we make meaning-of and experience the world.

00:08:11: Yeah great thanks for clarifying thank you yeah.

00:08:14: Terri we often talk about intercultural competence as something professionals need right in global workplaces but do argue it's actually just like a fundamental human capacity.

00:08:28: so

00:08:29: Why

00:08:29: is it so important in your perspective to begin developing intercultural learning as

00:08:35: a

00:08:36: capacity in schools rather than waiting until adulthood or the workplace?

00:08:42: And what's at stake if we don't begin early.

00:08:45: Yeah, well think you can think about like any other skill-like critical thinking.

00:08:55: You want your child to wait and start developing critical thinking skills until they're in the professional environment.

00:09:05: It would probably be better if we started instill that from a young age, yeah?

00:09:10: And In the world where living today no one or practically No One can avoid engaging with people who are different From

00:09:18: us.

00:09:18: Hmm

00:09:20: Engaging With People Who Are Different Can Cause Friction Or it Can Be an Opportunity.

00:09:27: It can be an opportunity for innovation, for creativity because it brings together different perspectives.

00:09:35: Different ways of approaching things, different ways of experiencing the world.

00:09:39: but we have to have that capacity to navigate those differences—to navigate them well.

00:09:46: and our world is growing so much more complex.

00:09:50: there's a term acronym called VUCA.

00:09:52: I don't know if you've heard.

00:09:54: Yeah, yes.

00:09:55: Volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity all of these things are vastly increasing especially you know as technology increases AI All this.

00:10:09: so Schools offer a great opportunity because they're oftentimes bringing people together from a lot of different backgrounds and experiences And the focus is meant to be on learning.

00:10:22: So they're like great labs for developing intercultural competence, but we have to really be intentional about doing that.

00:10:32: Yeah Tara I wanted... We want you to talk a little bit about the buzzword global citizenship.

00:10:37: yeah?

00:10:38: It's everywhere in education right now.

00:10:40: um But what does it mean and practice?

00:10:43: how does intercultural learning make this idea more tangible?

00:10:48: Yeah, well I mean we're all citizens of a global world.

00:10:52: This world is globalized interconnected but that alone doesn't really help us contribute to the Global issues that we face for example or even to thrive individually.

00:11:08: so really to flourish in In a global World To be active, positive contributor to that world.

00:11:17: We need to be able to effectively appropriately and authentically navigate those differences so we can utilize our differences in positive ways instead of let them bring us to heads with one another.

00:11:34: Yeah.

00:11:35: Tara I want you zoom in on a space where people often assume this is already happening like in international schools, right?

00:11:45: So there's this widespread belief that students in these environments naturally develop strong intercultural skills simply because they're surrounded by diversity.

00:11:57: Do you think assumption holds up?

00:12:01: There is actually research now.

00:12:03: quite a bit of it demonstrates the exposure to cultural difference and experience.

00:12:09: even immersion in another culture aren't enough to ensure consistent intercultural development.

00:12:18: You might learn great things about another culture, again you may have positive experiences.

00:12:24: a lot of students from the US who study abroad come back saying I've become so much more independent.

00:12:31: yeah

00:12:32: well that's it.

00:12:34: But if you were in a culture that's much more collectivist, say than the US.

00:12:40: That You actually became more us American In some ways it might not even recognize that is More unique to the U S then The place that you are in.

00:12:52: so It's useful probably but its Not transferable intercultural skill.

00:13:02: And so developing intercultural competence requires intentional facilitation.

00:13:08: So international schools, as I said offer great opportunities for that kind of learning but the presence of difference isn't enough.

00:13:16: we shouldn't just rely on that.

00:13:18: We really need to ensure that educators know how to facilitate That type of learning and many schools are focusing on that doing more.

00:13:29: educators are trying to facilitate that kind of learning, but we also have the focus on that kind Of learning and development for educators.

00:13:37: And not just assume That because they're older or more mature More experience than They automatically Are more interculturally competent?

00:13:46: And furthermore Have this skills develop other people's Intercultural competence?

00:13:53: Most people have not received training in this area, and that's what led me to start True North Intercultural ten years ago.

00:14:02: Yeah so... So what you're saying is actually Or there is sometimes a confusion between being exposed to diversity and actually learning from it.

00:14:13: So these environments like schools, education or international schools where people are surrounded by diversity but they still stay in their own bubble basically Yeah,

00:14:26: we oftentimes stay in our own bubble.

00:14:29: We talk about globalization were all more interconnected but it's also easier to stay in your own echo chamber You know?

00:14:37: We might all be connected on social media But I'm seeing certain things on social Media because of the algorithm and so often times where less exposed To difference.

00:14:51: these global global environments in today's world.

00:14:56: Can you share maybe something in practice like an example for our listeners?

00:15:00: Yeah, so if you think about when we encounter differences especially deeper differences that make an impact not things like different foods but different belief systems different values different ideas about what's right and wrong respectful disrespectful Usually we kind of have like a physical and emotional reaction.

00:15:24: So, react on autopilot without understanding.

00:15:28: I'm reacting in this way because my own sort of cultural norms and expectations have been violated.

00:15:36: so people need to better understand.

00:15:39: How have I been socialized?

00:15:41: What are my ideas about what's right and wrong, normal an abnormal respectful disrespectful etc.

00:15:48: Why?

00:15:49: how might others Have been socialize to feel differently To show respect differently to think About professionalism differently So that i can bridge those gaps.

00:16:05: And then we need to teach students and educators, the skills like emotional intelligence or social cognitive or socio-emotional skills to notice that reaction.

00:16:21: And slow it down.

00:16:26: other perspectives as well, is your own perspective so that then you can work more effectively together and bridge.

00:16:34: As opposed to just judging the other person in a context based on where you're coming from without even realizing they are coming form very different place.

00:16:46: And what helps students move?

00:16:49: like simply coexisting?

00:16:51: with this difference to developing true intercultural competence, would you suggest?

00:16:57: To have like

00:16:58: being

00:16:59: really pragmatic right now.

00:17:00: Like having role plays for example or a guided dialogue play Or just feeling sometimes the discomfort What is best practice in your opinion?

00:17:12: Yeah so there's lot that we can learn from experiential learning theory which basically says You're not going to learn an experience just because you have an experience, that could reinforce stereotypes.

00:17:27: We need to reflect on the experience like what happened?

00:17:31: How did we feel then?

00:17:33: we needed make meaning of it Like how does this connect other experiences I've had?

00:17:38: Does It Have Anything To Do With What We've Learned In The Classroom?

00:17:43: Or Can We Connect It?

00:17:44: Can We Go Do More Research And Better Understand Things.

00:17:48: and Then You Have Take Action take your learning and think about, well how can I apply this in the real world?

00:17:55: Or How Can i test it out?

00:17:57: so educators can help young people parents.

00:18:01: Can Help Young People by helping them move beyond just having the experience to reflecting on It making meaning of it thinking Of The Applications Outside In The Real World or Beyond That Experience.

00:18:16: So things like, and we can create these experiences in education.

00:18:19: Like having intercultural dialogues but not jumping to big topics right away But starting out by helping students identify And become more self-aware of their triggers Their values Etc.

00:18:37: Then building the skills To engage In difficult dialogues But starting with low stakes dialogues and topics.

00:18:46: And then moving to more challenging dialogues in topics, so it's really about moving beyond experience and really debriefing with folks and helping them build and practice the skills.

00:19:05: Well, sometimes it's also nice to stay in a bubble.

00:19:07: Right?

00:19:08: It is just they feel safer especially for the international students.

00:19:12: yeah comfortable so um.

00:19:14: So Is that totally wrong?

00:19:15: two have little bubbles or what's your take on this?

00:19:20: It's way more comfortable obviously But as I said like The world we're living into day.

00:19:27: if we all live and bubbles, we're going to end up having more conflict across difference than utilizing our difference effectively.

00:19:37: I talk about with educators like...we need get ourselves and students outside the comfort zone in order to learn more effectively from experience.

00:19:47: if you have an experience that's really comfortable your probably not gonna learn much.

00:19:55: But you also don't want to be so uncomfortable that like, you shut down from learning.

00:20:01: And there's kind of a balance where if your getting too uncomfortable You might need go back into comfort zone and then push yourself outside.

00:20:11: So I talk about meeting learners Where they are pushing them challenging the right amount but balancing with support.

00:20:21: Depending on how people are currently navigating difference, they might need different levels of support and challenge.

00:20:32: Some people may be very comfortable engaging in environments where you don't understand the language or it's a totally new place.

00:20:43: They would have to be challenged more than those environment.

00:20:45: for other It's like, I just got on an airplane for the very first time.

00:20:50: Yeah?

00:20:51: Uh...I'm in a place where i don't understand what's going on and never experienced that before.

00:20:56: That is really uncomfortable to some people And they're gonna need more support.

00:21:01: So it's developmental process.

00:21:04: Where people are in this process differs.

00:21:08: They have different needs For development

00:21:13: And it definitely needs competent educators, right?

00:21:16: To steer this process and to support along the way.

00:21:20: Exactly!

00:21:22: Terra is zooming

00:21:23: out from schools into bigger picture a little bit.

00:21:26: if we start to think of intercultural learning not just as an educational goal but also human capacity that we actively develop across our lives.

00:21:38: How do you see this reshaping in future of education, or leadership as well.

00:21:44: Are there already shifts on the way that give you a glimpse what's coming?

00:21:51: Yeah I mean leadership in complex world requires certain degree of intercultural competence and capacity to navigate differences.

00:22:01: whether your identifying those difference is cultural It is probably cultural in some way or not.

00:22:10: So I think this will increasingly be recognized as a core skill for leaders, i think In many ways it already Is even though sometimes its under different names.

00:22:21: you know emotional intelligence For example goes very hand-in-hand with intercultural competence, but we are seeing more employers identify inner cultural competence as a desired skill.

00:22:35: There have been more studies that recognize this is kind of future skills needed and don't need much content knowledge in the world of AI, ethical decisions in the face of complex situations and differing perspectives.

00:23:03: So I do see a growing recognition of this, um, in schools In the workplace A lot of it is being challenged right now in the world that we're living.

00:23:14: there's pushback against that because globalization does inspire fear, it's goes back to that bubble.

00:23:22: It's like we can't be in our comfortable bubble as much.

00:23:26: and yeah.

00:23:27: And that was that leads to some defensiveness and fear oftentimes.

00:23:34: And it's because people don't have the capacity to navigate that difference.

00:23:41: So for schools, so as a core skills it would be ideal to actually have

00:23:48: whole

00:23:49: class about culture.

00:23:51: About the different international whatever students understand their own cultures first and then also internationally more competent.

00:24:02: You see something like this in practice?

00:24:04: I think

00:24:05: goes beyond a class because

00:24:07: I got just talking about

00:24:08: the example

00:24:09: of

00:24:09: critical thinking.

00:24:11: Yeah, we can't teach critical thinking very well by having a class in it yeah even if It is a required Class of everyone.

00:24:20: Because then they think its that class and They go to another class.

00:24:23: but Critical Thinking doesn't apply here.

00:24:26: so In so much of what we do, whether it's in classes and school but also in co-curricular activities.

00:24:34: And sports and other things students are doing they have an opportunity to engage with people who were different.

00:24:43: And so helping them navigate that Giving them tools, making themselves aware of why they might be reacting the way that their reacting when certain things happen.

00:24:57: What can do in practicing really needs to integrated into fabric education?

00:25:08: Daryl Smith talks about diversity in higher education specifically, and she uses a great metaphor of it's kind like technology many years ago.

00:25:19: Like technology was here to stay.

00:25:22: Diversity is here to say It's not going anywhere.

00:25:26: We really need to think about how we can help all learners develop the capacity because there's a lot of potential with diversity, just like with technology.

00:25:44: But it also inspired some fear and discomfort of.

00:25:48: this is new.

00:25:49: I don't know what to do with that but all.

00:25:51: so It Just Needs To Be Integrated Into The Fabric.

00:25:54: We Can't Just Say Oh the Computer Science Students Will Study Technology Or You Know The Language Students Will study Culture Things.

00:26:05: everybody needs to know how to navigate.

00:26:08: And to do that, we have to make sure all educators understand How To Utilize Technology?

00:26:16: How Do You Utilized Diversity in the

00:26:18: Classroom?".

00:26:19: So I like that analogy!

00:26:23: Okay so start with the educators first or what's your take?

00:26:28: because they are eventually or becoming aware of it and be able to reflect, and be capable as well.

00:26:39: Exactly!

00:26:40: We need to start with educators helping them develop their intercultural competence understand what this is.

00:26:47: we oftentimes make the assumption like I said before oh students needs more inter-culturally competent or we need more global competency and they just think that educators will know what to do or how to go about.

00:27:02: And oftentimes, that then leads well we'll incorporate more international stuff into our classes or read books by a few people from different cultural groups which is good addition but not sufficient to develop intercultural skills.

00:27:22: so I need start with educators.

00:27:25: But one thing I've seen also is that as educators start to do this work and they integrate it with students, It's almost like self-reinforcing.

00:27:35: They learn from the experience of facilitating intercultural learning with students.

00:27:41: And it helps their own intercultural development.

00:27:44: Yes!

00:27:45: They might go saying well what does... What does Intercultural Learning have to do with mathematics?

00:27:53: And then they start integrating intercultural learning and helping students, for example.

00:27:58: Think about how is mathematics fun?

00:28:03: About differently in different parts of the world.

00:28:06: How does math think about knowing differently than the humanities?

00:28:12: Think about knowing.

00:28:14: And as they integrate that into the classroom, then they start to take more ownership and see like oh this does relate.

00:28:21: To my discipline?

00:28:22: This isn't a different thing.

00:28:26: yeah I've seen that in my work.

00:28:28: i work with educators from a wide variety of fields and oftentimes They move From.

00:28:33: how do I make time to fit In this other Thing That's not relevant to My field too.

00:28:39: Oh this is really Really relevant to my Field And I see how we can teach it in combination with my discipline.

00:28:50: So interesting, thank you for sharing.

00:28:53: Tara.

00:28:53: In a time where We See A Lot Of Polarisation What Gives You Then Hope In This Field?

00:28:59: What Keeps You Optimistic ?

00:29:02: I would say the people that i work With There Are A lot of Educators That are Doing a great job.

00:29:10: They're doing their best to foster intercultural learning, they are focusing on developing their own skills knowledge and understanding in this area In even the face of like great challenges that we're experiencing these days around diversity And in education in particular.

00:29:30: So I think there is a lot of polarization in the world right now but it's also kind of shining a light on just how important this work is.

00:29:41: A lot people are doing great work out there, even if what we see around us... We've seen more negative newslines but I'm in the trenches every day and can tell you that's positive things going on.

00:29:58: It really sounds like exposure creates opportunity as mentioned before But without reflection, without intention it does not necessarily lead to growth.

00:30:13: And I'm just curious how we move from assuming that intercultural learning actually happens to intentionally designing it?

00:30:22: This is really interesting and the crucial point.

00:30:26: probably many people are interested in.

00:30:28: Yes.

00:30:29: And like I said, that's why i do the work I do because I think...I definitely noticed a gap in schools started to recognize we need to do this.

00:30:40: they started trying to do it and then they recognized oh!

00:30:42: We Need To Support Educators In Gaining Skills To Do This.

00:30:48: But Didn't Really Know.

00:30:50: how do you support educators in doing that?

00:30:53: What are the skills that educators need, they're struggling.

00:30:57: They're challenged.

00:30:58: They say then...you know..they need to have more skills.

00:31:02: I worked with a nursing school or nurse a nursing department That had gotten a new mandate where they had to be graduating culturally competent carers.

00:31:15: Okay,

00:31:15: yes.

00:31:16: Well how do we prepare people to be like okay?

00:31:19: We agree but weren't trained necessarily in our day to be culturally competent carers and we certainly weren't training other culturally competent carriers.

00:31:30: so I really need focus on helping educators not expecting that educators should know.

00:31:43: Tara, if intercultural

00:31:45: learning

00:31:46: is truly embraced as a core human capacity or let's call it superpower as well across schools workplaces societies

00:31:56: What kind

00:31:57: of world might we begin to see?

00:32:00: So how might it change the way we communicate We collaborate.

00:32:05: Or even and you mentioned that already even navigate conflicts You're seeing today in this world.

00:32:11: Yeah Well I think see a lot more of all the things that you just named but also we'd say a lot.

00:32:17: More empathy, respect for human dignity in action.

00:32:26: I think people would approach and think about cultural differences not as an obstacle to overcome, but as opportunities to see and understand issues from multiple different perspectives.

00:32:42: And to innovate and problem solve in ways that we couldn't do on our own or without that kind of capacity.

00:32:53: Tara thank you so much.

00:32:55: if there are any listeners who want to learn more about your work where can they find you?

00:33:00: Well, the website is probably the best place.

00:33:03: It's just truenorthintercultural.com.

00:33:08: I'm also on LinkedIn, Tara Harvey PhD?

00:33:13: You can put the link in the show notes but those are where i'm most active.

00:33:20: Fantastic.

00:33:20: And how did you come about your branding True North into cultural?

00:33:24: What's the history or story behind that?

00:33:26: Yeah,

00:33:27: well some people might be familiar with the expression true north which is like where The Compass naturally pulls you.

00:33:35: it's like That Is Your Lighthouse Your Direction.

00:33:39: So for me True North is kind of About Intercultural.

00:33:45: Being interculturally competent isn't just compromising.

00:33:51: It isn't just about adapting to somebody else's way, but it is staying true who you are while at the same time recognizing everybody And they're true north and their authentic self, working together more effectively.

00:34:12: Also in Minnesota everything is about the North.

00:34:17: You go up north to have fun!

00:34:18: We are up north so it rang a bell with that regard too.

00:34:25: Thank you so much, Tara for sharing your insights.

00:34:29: Really valuable and I can definitely recommend your program to everyone who is interested.

00:34:34: either reach out to Tara or myself as well!

00:34:36: And i think it's a wonderful journey to develop intercultural competence.

00:34:39: for short.

00:34:40: thank you for being our guest.

00:34:42: thanks for

00:34:46: everything.